What Can We Do About This Feeling of Impending Doom?

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What Can We Do About This Feeling of Impending Doom?

A conversation with Dan Harris on awe, thinking of the future, looking for the healers (and becoming one), embodiment, never worrying alone, and more.

Mapu

Nov 03, 2026

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Transcript

PSA IF YOU ARE A CITIZEN OF THE UNITED STATES THIS IS YOUR NOT-SO-GENTLE REMINDER TO EXERCISE YOUR RIGHT TO VOTE FOR THE MIDTERMS TOMORROW. IF YOU AREN’T CONVINCED YET, LISTEN TO THIS CONVO AND I PROMISE YOU’LL BE PROUD TO BE OUT AT THE POLLS OK ENOUGH YELLING

i love you and i also love democracy so pls vote and now i hope you enjoy!

long time no see my lovelies! i don’t even know where to start, but all you gotta know for now is that often times when you make plans, life happens instead. at some point in this wonderful conversation with

Dan Harris

(more on him after this mini life update) i mentioned i was going on a US trip to turn some of my url connections into irl ones. long story short, i am currently in San Francisco and the weeks i’ve spent here have been some of the most expansive and fulfilling ever—all while throwing me for a hell of a loop regarding what i’m doing with my life and how i want to move forward in the world as i feel it tilting on its axis.

this all sounds very exciting, and it genuinely has been, at least until my endometriosis flared up and kind of ruined the rest of my adventure. an ER visit and a last minute plane ticket later, i’m flying back to Bogotá much earlier than expected to hopefully figure out how to manage the pain (

all advice and support from my fellow endo girlies is welcomed and encouraged

)

.

on top of this unfortunate event, i have been dealing with some pretty complex trauma that i hope i’m ready to share with you at some point, which i believe was partly what triggered the flare up.

i’m not gonna lie, i am nothing short of devastated, but the insights from this entire experience are worth more than i know i’m giving them credit for at this moment of grief. plans have been cancelled, blood has been drawn, deadlines have been missed, tears have been shed, and emails have been ignored. it’s safe to say that this feeling of impending doom this conversation explores is something extremely relevant in my life at the moment, and after managing the pain enough to finish editing, listening back to this conversation sort of pulled me back down to earth.

i have so much i want to share, but i don’t want to compromise my health or the quality of these projects that i’ve been developing for a while now. i’m quite frustrated at my chronically ill body for messing up my plans, but i hope you understand the why behind this hiatus (

also paid subs i love you so much for still being here even tho i haven’t been able to share pieces with you lately, you are directly funding everything i do and truuuuuust some really good stuff is coming). i pinky promise it will be worth the wait. in the meantime though, i leave you with this wonderful chat i had with Dan.

if you are also struggling with Impending Doom™, i hope this conversation makes it at least a little better, i know it did for me <3 a massive thank you to Dan and his team for making this happen :)

In case you don’t already know, you may be wondering: who is

Dan Harris

? I knew him as the host of one of the few podcasts—

10% Happier

—that were genuinely helpful in my never-ending journey of sense-making in this absurd world. I am not one to easily trust a man with a podcast (

just kidding?

), but I’m so grateful that I stumbled upon the wisdom that Dan and his amazing guests have to share.

Beyond being this voice of reason during my existential walks along the Arno back when I was living in Florence, I came to learn a little more about him and his story and felt genuinely seen. He is a true inspiration and one of the voices in the media landscape whose work is centered against fear.

Fast forward to a few weeks ago, his team reached out to have a chat and share a little bit of what he’s been working on, and it was definitely a big pinch-me moment for me. Currently, he’s a contributor on MS NOW, hosting

Never Worry Alone

,

answering members’ live questions about coping with the fears and anxieties prompted by the current news landscape. It’s really exciting to see a news organization focusing on keeping people not just informed, but regulated and empowered—what Dan calls helping people “metabolize the information.”

.

We get into it in the conversation, but I also encourage you to look into the

MS NOW membership here

.

As I mention at the very end, this conversation felt deeply generative so I hope it makes ripples well beyond these screens.

Here’s the transcript for the ones who would rather read it!

disclaimer i am abt to head to the airport and didn’t have enough time to edit the transcript properly but you will still get the gist ok enjoyyyyy!

M

: All right. It’s so nice to meet you. I have been listening to your podcast for a really long time, even before I started, you know, sharing on social media what I’m up to. And just... Before, we dive into this, could you just introduce yourself and talk a little bit about what you’re working on right now?

D

: Sure. Very nice to meet you. Thanks, Ray. Talking to me. My name is Dan Harris. I... I used to be a network newsman, a TV anchorman, and then I had a panic attack on television, and that led me to meditation, and I wrote a book about it called 10% Happier, and that has now become a podcast, and a meditation app, and a content deal with MS Now.

M

: Amazing. And, you know, I like, I find what’s. Really inspiring about your story. I guess in a way that it parallels mine, where I... I used to be very... I guess, skeptic. about, you know, mindfulness, meditation, all of these things, I was... very much, like, facts are facts, and life is, you know, not great, and we just have to deal with it. But I reached a breaking point, which is exactly what prompted me to pivot my life. You know, I... I was a fashion student in Italy, I was studying fashion business. And I realized that I was just losing my life to my phone. Like every single free moment that I had, I was just scrolling and just like literally doomscrolling on TikTok. And I realized, I don’t really have hobbies, I don’t have a life, like, I just feel absolute dread about the future and what life is. You know, you just see politicians saying crazy things, you see, you know, disproportionate wealth, you see... also, you laugh. You you send each other memes with your friends, you find recipes, you get book recommendations. So, you know, you can’t really separate them because the algorithm is is a tricky thing. But I also saw everyone around me doing this. I saw my friends, and like I realized we’re not having interesting conversations, we’re not really doing anything with our lives except go to school and be on our phones and perhaps go out for a drink at night on Friday. That’s it. So I was like, I cannot keep doing this, like, I was like, okay, I’m only, like, 20 right now, how am I supposed to, like, do this forever? And I was like, I know I got it good right now. I’m in college, I’m studying abroad. it only gets worse from here, and that’s what all of the adults around me told me. I was like, I can’t keep doing this. So, I was like, okay, let’s do something about it. And that’s when I started being more mindful about the media that I was consuming. I started reading a lot more. I began. doing a lot more research into the things that worried me, because I didn’t understand them, and not understanding them just caused, I guess, more panic through the uncertainty that we had to navigate. And then, from there, I... I started being like, okay, I don’t want to be addicted to my phone anymore, and this, over the past 2 years, has grown into my life. You know, on Substack, I am almost at 600,000 subscribers, which is insane. It’s amazing. Yeah. And it all really started for me. Okay, I don’t want to be on my phone anymore. And it’s grown into a bigger mission of... What can we do to, like, you know, have agency over our lives and navigate the complications of our times to live? I guess not necessarily in peace, but be okay, you know? I really don’t think we... we can ask for, you know, pure joy and... I guess, fulfillment, as a whole, but just, you know, being okay. So, that’s why also, when... when your team reached out to me, I was like, oh, this is so aligned, and I think someone like you, especially for people of my generation, has a lot of insights into... How... how do we do this?

D

: But your story is incredible, and what you’ve built is incredible. Just to have that... not only to have the insight about the amount of suffering that. Compulsive phone use is... was creating for you, and is creating for so many people, but then to... to buck the trend and... Do something about it. Bravo.

M

: Thank you, thank you. So, I think... One of the, things that has, like, really impacted my life, you know, in one of your podcast episodes with Dacher Keltner, you were talking about awe and wonder, and how it can be an antidote. And for me, I was always told to, you know, reach for... for happiness and, you know, look toward the future, but this reframing of, you know, genuinely stopping and Finding genuine, like, awe. It’s like, I think about the concept of the sublime, right? And I think it means something different for everyone, but I’ve learned to find it across so many areas of my life. And at that point, I was living in Florence, so I guess it was pretty easy to go outside and find that sense of wonder. Mmm. And right now, I think, for example, now I’m back home in Bogota, in Colombia. And I find it a lot more difficult to find this awe, like, you know, it’s easy when you are in places where there’s nature, and you feel at peace when you walk outside. So, I feel like a lot of our generation is Stuck at home in our phones, because we don’t really have much of a choice at times, or we don’t have the energy to do more than that. So, in your opinion, how do you think we can find a sense of awe, also through the digital?

D

: Mmm. I mean, basically what you’re asking is like, how do we re-enchant the world because we’ve made it flat and two-dimensional.

M

: Yes.

D

: And, you know, what can we do to bring some magic back? I mean, I think there’s so many places to start. One is, even if you’re in a city, looking up, especially at night, even with the light pollution, you can get a sense. If you’re willing to take just a 10-second pause, that we’re on this rock, spinning through infinite space, and there’s just, you know, life can seem so small, especially when it’s narrowed down to a point on your phone. But all you have to do is look up, to... To get a very powerful contradiction to that. You know, kind of... Sense of drudgery and dread that is inculcated in us by. you know, living a digital life. In terms of how you can get on your phone, you know, we all know how to... to... to train our algorithm. We all know how to, give feedback to the social media platforms through our eyeballs and through our swipes, and so for me, you know, I... when I look at TikTok, when I look at TikTok, it is genuinely And generally, It is generally just, animal videos, emotional reunions, comedy clips, maybe some funny dances, and so often I find that it’s bringing me the best of humanity, and when it doesn’t, I swipe quite quickly, because I’m trying to disincentivize the platform from feeding me stuff that’s gonna give me anger and anxiety.

M

: Yeah, no, absolutely. I actually took some notes on this, because I recently came across, this creator called Alina Wood on TikTok, and she’s a sustainability scientist, and she said something that really struck me, because I also see so much online of how... Because I go out of my way, sometimes I have a separate account where I try to see, like, what are people looking at that makes them think this way, right? So she was talking about how we. should be past this optimism versus doomism debate. You know, this polar opposite that we are, you know, I guess, holding onto. And instead of, you know. saying, like, oh, I’m hopeful without a reason, or I’m submitting to fear, and I’m just paralyzed. A. how is this piece of content that I’m seeing right now encouraging or discouraging me from taking action? And if it is encouraging me, you interact with that. And if it’s not, then you just don’t interact, scroll past. And I don’t know why, but this reframing. of, you know, optimism versus doomism, and just, like, focusing toward action. I guess that’s kind of what I’ve been doing, but I think this is something that really is helpful as a whole. You know, our algorithms can harm us, but it can... they can also help us a lot.

D

: Yes, yes, you’re voting with every piece of content you consume. You’re voting for what kind of world you want, what kind of information environment you want, and what kind of mind you want. And so, you have more power than you might think, and I would exercise it.

M

: Absolutely. Yeah, no, I think that this, this thing about power is particularly relevant right now, when, again, we are frozen, we are numb, we are paralyzed, and when we are told that, oh, there’s nothing you can do, there’s, like, all of these politicians, or these very few people that are actually in control, it’s very discouraging. You know, when I talk to my friends about The future, or even, like, right now, like, their jobs. Everyone’s like, yeah, I don’t like this. I’m whatever. But like, you know, there’s nothing we can do. It’s hard to think about the future. And for example, having children even.

D

: and.

M

: It’s a... it’s a question that our generation is really struggling with. So, you know, I know you have a kid, right?

D

: Yes. I have a almost 12 year old. Yes.

M

: Yes. So I think this, I want to just know your perspective on this, you know, from someone who wants to remain child free. That’s, you know, I’m 23 years old as, you know, a dad, someone from a different generation. How do you see this?

D

: Well... I think two things are true at the same time. It’s... it... I’m not trying to say that there are no reasons for concern. When you look out at the world. There are many reasons for concern. Environmental degradation, you have conflict, You’ve got increasing polarization. We’ve got a rightward trend, a sort of fascistic trend in what seemed like healthy democracies not long ago. So there are many, many reasons to be concerned, plus the massive question marks around AI, what’s that going to do to our job prospects, on and on and on. All that’s true, I’m not trying to gaslight you into saying that, these are not problems. But they can be... your view of the world can be warped, and the problems can be disproportionately magnified if you are staring at a phone all day. And if you put your phone away and step outside. you will see that the humdrum benevolence of the human species carries on. It’s just not showing up on your phone. So there are people all around you teaching children, building buildings, holding the door open for other people. Helping people across the street, volunteering at important organizations. But this does not... provoke as much anger and anxiety, which is what drives engagement to these social media platforms. And so, I like to encourage a kind of rebellious spirit. Understand You know, red pill yourself. Understand that very wealthy people are profiting off of your anger and anxiety. And if you go around and look at life as it’s actually being lived. outside of the digital, you will see that there’s an enormous amount of good stuff to take in. There’s also bad stuff, too. I’m not... again, I’m not trying to say it’s all great, the species is on a glide path toward, you know, perpetual abundance and bliss. I’m just saying that you can’t take effective action if you’re not seeing clearly and, and seeing clearly requires seeing that. two things are true at the same time. There’s an enormous goodness in the world and in the human animal, and there’s also a reason for concern. But if you want to do about it, you need to be proper... if you want to do something effective, you want to be properly resourced, and that involves Not being swamped by dread.

M

: Hmm. Lost you there for a second.

D

: Oh, where did you lose me?

M

: Yeah, okay. Apparently my internet connection is unstable, but okay. It’s... it’s alright. No, but I’m... I think I got your message, and I agree with it so much, because, you know, for me, part of this process of... understanding the digital world, and, you know, what’s out there, because I... I reached the point where I was like, if there is all of this bad, then there must be good. And I knew it because I saw it in myself and I saw it in the connections that I made. So that that itself gave me sort of the impulse to do something. So there’s a phrase that I like very much, which is look for the healers. In times of in dark times, you look for the healers because they are always there. And we should be paying attention to them because at the end of the day, if we hop on our phones and everyone’s telling us, oh, you don’t have power, there’s nothing you can do, who’s profiting off of that? You know, if they can convince us that we can’t do anything, then it’s probably because we actually can and they just don’t want us to.

D

: Yes. And I would say not just... the goal isn’t just to pay attention to the healers or the helpers, it’s to become one.

M

: Yes.

D

: You know, like, there’s an enormous agency in that. And, like, I’m not saying that if you become one, if you lived an engaged, helpful life, it’s gonna solve everything, but it will make you happier. And... You know, what how what’s the alternative? You want to spend your whole life drenched in in the misery of the digital, or do you want to be out there doing something useful that improves the world? And and and by being engaged, it uplifts your own mind.

M

: Yeah, no, I think this literally, I think is exactly like my evolution as I’ve stepped into this. You know, at first I was like, oh, this is horrible. There’s nothing I can do. And then I was like, oh, wait, there’s people doing stuff. Like, let’s let’s check them out. And now, you know, I ditched like my fashion career. I was like, no, I feel like this is more important than I am now focused. toward change, and, you know, I like to talk about this shift from the attention economy toward the connection economy. That’s, I guess, like, my big mission, because I realized Okay, it’s not enough for us to direct our attention at something unless we transform for example, business models, how we interact with other people, because I know sentiment is very important, but ultimately, how does that translate into real-life change? So, I started this, you know, within my personal way of, you know, spending my money, or not just necessarily money, how do I uplift other people? how do we trade things? How do I connect with you? How do I reach out? And I guess this connection really is what also opened my eyes into, oh, there’s so much to do, and it’s exciting, and it’s fulfilling, and I guess that’s also what I want to show other people. And, you know, I was writing an essay about, like, you know, how to find our will to live, when the world, like, when my feet are showing me how the world is ending. And something that came up was this phrase that was honest hope, because I... like, for me, hope is something that I think is... really confusing, because it’s like, I want to wish this, but I don’t believe it, you know? Like, this disconnection between my body, my feelings, and my mind. So, I’m... I shifted this eventually into honest love. You know, because I found that the opposite of fear, which is what’s kind of keeping us so stuck, it wasn’t hope, it was love, because I... I love feeling good when I do something, I love... children when they are happy and thriving. I love peace, I love to see nature thriving, and that’s what’s driving me, because it’s always there, and not some distant future that I’ll probably not get to see, because also we’re used to, like, immediate results. Which is clearly not realistic. So, I’ve shifted to this, love, driven action. And I think that that also, I guess, connects back a little bit to How,

D

: Sorry, just to jump in on that love-driven action thing, have you heard the expression,

action absorbs anxiety?

M

: No, but I’m gonna write it down right now.

D

: It’s a good one, and I use it all the time. I did not come up with it, but it’s... it’s what I’m hearing in what you’re saying, that... that... Taking action can make you feel better and also helps the world, which then in turn makes you feel better. So. I’ll give you another quote from Abraham Lincoln.

When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That’s my religion

. And, you know, I think the fact that when we do good, it feels good, like, that feature in the human operating system, I know we have a lot of bugs, but that.

M

: me.

D

: Sure. Is the source of my realistic hope, you know, that I can’t sit here and tell you everything’s going to be fine, but I can tell you that we have the tools to make it better. Whether we choose to act on them, I can’t control that, but I can control what I do.

M

: Yeah, no, I really love that. And I think this shift from thinking just with my head, you know, I think this is a big thing that I’ve seen within myself and within just... Everyone right now, in general, it’s this sort of disembodiment. I guess the act of, you know, scrolling and, you know, distracting ourselves, like, you kind of. block your perception of time and space and everything, your sensations in your body, how do you feel, when you just go on your phone because you’re just so overwhelmed that you just want to shut down. And it doesn’t work like that because you don’t shut down, you’re feeding it even more information, you’re overwhelming your system even more, but it kind of does feel like that. And I realized, okay, when I turned my phone off, I was like. I don’t even know what I looked at, first of all. What do you mean 3 hours have gone by? I am dehydrated and my head hurts.

D

: So...

M

: And, you know, I realized, like, I am using this to separate myself from the discomfort I’m feeling also in my body and my mind. And this has turned into what does it mean to be in our bodies when so much exists in the digital? And when we are kind of, you know, in a state of survival, a lot of us, you know, everyone has a lot of, you know, mental health issues right now. It’s getting even worse. My generation is not doing well. For example, I am also neurodivergent. So that’s that adds another, I guess, layer to it. You know, people are getting more and more chronic illnesses. You know, especially post-COVID, I also have chronic illnesses, so, you know, it’s, it’s a hard, thing to navigate, but I, I want to just. hear your, Your take on this mind and body connection when we are navigating these, you know, turbulent times.

D

: I think it’s... it’s kind of annoying that it’s a cliche, but, you know, getting out of your head and into your body is extraordinarily important, and... it kind of... there’s a reason why cliches become cliches, because they’re important and true. And so there are all sorts of, like, little hacks that you can do to reset your nervous system. One really simple one is just... 3 deep breaths. And doing them in a specific way, I find, doing them in a specific way helps. Really, really deep inhale through the nose. Exhale 3 times longer through the mouth with lips pursed, as if you’re blowing through a straw, so this is called straw breathing, and... I I’ve found that it it really reliably kind of just resets things, gets you out of out of your head and into your body. And it’s a move you can make all through the day. And you can do it subtly so that even if you’re in a class or in a stressful meeting or on a bad date, you can do it and the other person doesn’t need to know. And it kind of gets you out of the stories which are making you miserable into your body, which is like right here, right now. Not for nothing. You know, we sometimes make bad decisions ‘cause we’re not listening to our body. The body’s like sending us signals all the time. butterflies, or a sense of dread, or a sense of excitement. All of these are signals that we can listen to, like, listen to our gut. That’s another cliche, but again, it got there for a reason. One other thing that I I was just talking to a meditation teacher yesterday who had this super like incredibly simple little thing of, you know, just a couple times a day for 10 seconds, I’ll just stop. Like, I’ll be halfway through walking up the stairs, and I’ll just stop and look around. For 10 seconds. This is my life. This is actually my life. And most of the time, I’m just toppling forward into the next thing. The next scroll, the next sip of my latte or matcha, the next... Date I’m gonna go on, the next piece of work I have to do, but I’m missing my life often. And can I just pause every once in a while, look around, like what. I’ve just landed here from outer space, check it out. And just getting in the habit of these little interrupters. I mean, I’ve found that can be incredibly helpful.

M: Yeah, I have also... I’ve been kind of doing that also recently, you know, in this process of, you know, coming back to my body, and, you know, when we’re talking about creativity and, like, what... I kept thinking about what makes me human. Like, what makes this experience unique? And why is it worth it? And I never found it in, oh, I got to analyze this huge book, and I got to understand all of these things, and I... you know, it came down to... Okay, I’m just gonna have a meal in silence. You know, it’s... about, again, making this pause, which I think translates, also into how we navigate the digital world. If you’re scrolling all the time, okay, no, like, I love to think of ambient media. So, for example, I love just playing a recording of a thunderstorm. And just, you know, looking at it for a while before I keep working, just taking a break, even though I can’t really go outside and, you know, look at this, it’s okay, you know? I’m okay. This is the world. It’s so much bigger than me. And I am in this moment, and I am not in my next meeting, and I am not in the million things I have to deal with. I am not, you know, thinking about, oh, the next elections, this is so stressful. So, I think it’s also something that we can practice beyond, you know, just our daily lives, like. in the physical world, but also when, you know, at our desk job, or when we’re just, I guess, doomscrolling, like. I always think of transition. It’s like, okay, if I’m doomscrolling and I just want to like stop, sometimes that’s not so simple. So, you know, finding these transitional moments, I think are very helpful for us to get into that habit.

D

: Yeah, I agree. One other little slogan I want to tell you about.

M

: because.

D

: It’s on point here, and it kind of rhymes with a lot of the things we’ve been discussing, but there’s a huge lever for stress reduction and anxiety reduction that I fear many young people are not pulling, and that is other people. I, you know, we... I’m not an expert at the numbers, but I believe the data indicate that young people these days, through no fault of their own, because this is the world that older people have created for them, but younger people are doing less socializing than older generations did at that age. And I don’t think it’s a coincidence that we’re seeing these record levels of anxiety and addiction and depression and loneliness, and so I’ll give you a little slogan that I found really helpful. Again, I did not come up with this, but never worry alone. that... If you think you have to carry all of life’s problems on your own, well, it’s gonna... that’s a misery. You know, there’s actually a study that had people stand in front of a large hill or a mountain, and then... and ask them. gauge how high it is. And then they had them do that with somebody standing next to them, and when you have somebody next to you, the hill looks smaller. And...

M

: Oh, wow.

D: So, you know, another of my... this is one of my little slogans, which is, life is better in the carpool lane. Like, let’s do this thing together. That’s how we evolved. The way we’re living now is counter-evolutionary. And so a lot of my work really is around. helping people... it’s what you said, the connection economy. I mean, you and I have very similar missions. You know, I think you know, like, I’m doing this thing with the... cable news company, MS Now, and I’m doing these online segments. One of them is called Never Worry Alone, and the whole idea is, let’s get together on Monday afternoons, and you can ask me questions about how to survive the news, and how to survive any aspect of life, what does the research say, and then we’ll do a little meditation together. And just that Even if even if it’s digital, just that little hit of community, I think is just super, super helpful.

M

: Yeah, no, absolutely, and that’s also something I was gonna bring up. You know, it’s hard to, you know, sometimes go and see people physically, especially, for example, for me, I don’t really find many people that think the way I do in, you know, my social circles here, you know, and... finding this space online made me realize that I am not alone, you know? Even just, like, I get one comment, I... I remember, like, sometimes when I’m feeling like the Sunday scaries, I just hop on Alive, and I’m like, hey guys, let’s just read some poetry together.

D

: And.

M

: It really is so healing. And, you know, it does give you this sense of. like, awe, in a way. Like, how crazy is it that I am here, but I am connected to all of these people from all over the world, and I feel like that is one of the true gifts that technology has given us. Yeah.

D

: I think you’re totally right about the fact that we don’t want to say all digital life is off-limits or bad, it’s making you miserable. Like, there are absolutely ways to navigate the digital world in ways that will make you happier. You can find people who, like, in my country, there are a lot of people who we call them blue dots, they’re, you know, people who don’t, who... Democrats, or people who are, uncomfortable with Donald Trump, who live in red states, where it’s mostly MAGA. And, you know, having a digital... Place like MS Now or you can find people on. Twitter or whatever it is who agree with you or Substack. That I think is very, very powerful. But I think if that’s all you’re doing for human interaction, that’s where I get worried. And I know that’s not what you’re doing.

M

: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. And, you know, speaking more of what you’re doing with MS Now, you know, I think one of the, I guess, most difficult things right now, you know, especially in the political landscape going on, you know, for example, here, we just. We have a new government from two months ago. It is. Very much, with authoritarian tendencies, you know, media censorship. it’s... it’s been really difficult to navigate, kind of, the media landscape, and, you know, you get just overwhelmed with so much, so I... I know that there’s, like, this feature that you guys have where you only see, like, the top 10 stories or something along those lines, right?

D

: Yeah, I don’t want to take credit for this. This was the folks at MS Now, but it’s kind of a brilliant move. If you go to the For You page. you get the top 10 news stories, and then it automatically nudges you to go to the Breathe page, where you can get guided meditations, or hang out with me, or some of the other, sort of, wellness contributors, and I like that a lot, that... You know, we, we do need the news, we do need to stay engaged, but we also need to stay regulated so that we can be. Productive players in the world. So I like sometimes think about it as a hierarchy. You want information regulation and then activation and yeah.

M

: Yeah.

D

: I think that, you know, I’ve never seen a media... I used to be a newsman, and I, you know, I’m kind of one step back in by doing this deal with MS now, but I’ve never... I’ve wanted to see a media company a news organization, like, do... do this, you know, like, help people not only stay informed, but then metabolize the information, so I think it’s... it’s pretty cool to... to see these guys doing that, and to be part of it.

M

: Absolutely, I think that’s exactly how we should be. Starting to understand the... the information landscape right now. There is no really... there’s not really much regulation. I think that’s, for example, one of the reasons why I have been able to, you know, grow this way, because I curate for people. I’m like, okay, we are so overwhelmed, how about we look here, and we look here, like, this is interesting, let’s have a discussion about this. So hopefully, we will see something really great come out of this, and, you know, a real impact in how media companies in general, and even how we as individuals, you know, regulate ourselves and cope with this world, and realize that Again, there’s so much... beauty, there’s so much connection within ourselves and with other people. And even though things are... Not exactly like we want them to be, they probably never will be, but they’re still good, and they’re still joy, they’re still awe, and there’s so much we can do.

D

: Yes, and being miserable doesn’t help anybody. Especially, like, the performative misery you see online. It doesn’t... I get it, I’m not saying... I’m not trying to tell you everything’s rosy, but, like. You’re being miserable. contributes nothing. So... and recognize also that people, you know, very wealthy people want to keep you in that state of resignation, and that’s bullshit. I’m so impressed by what you’re doing. I’m gonna... I had not heard of it until today, so I’m actually gonna follow and recommend you so that I, because I’m just... I feel a deep... Like, kinship with what you’re trying to build.

M

: Thank you so much.

D

: instead of Doomscrolling.

M

: Instead of Doomscrolling, yes.

D

: When did you start?

M

: I started. I mean, I started on TikTok, but I always knew I wanted to, right? Because I was like, I cannot, you know, organically grow too much on Substack, so I started experimenting on TikTok, and eventually, thankfully, it kicked off pretty fast. I was just like, I’m on a journey to reclaim my attention. It’s more important than ever to pay attention to what we’re looking at, you know, attention is a new currency, even though it was not really new, but after I’ve done more research, obviously my perspective has changed. I was like, if you guys want to come along, you’re welcome to. And that first video that I posted got 200k views. And then from there, I... I did this little slideshow of media to consume this week instead of Doomscrolling, and that went... crazy viral and I was like oh my god this is crazy

D

: your handle.

M

: People started doing their own.

D

: What’s your handle on TikTok?

M

: It’s Mapu CC.

D

: Mapu CC.

M

: Yes. I’m I’m on a bit of a. of, restructuring for my socials, because I... I thought, like, okay, now that I have built all of this. how can we approach social media differently? You know, we see everyone doing the hook, the... all these things, trying to compress things. We see the thinkfluencers who are just, like, regurgitating some, like, really dense book or really complex philosophy into 3 minutes with a bunch of clicks and pictures, and I was like. I don’t want to do that. How can we foster, like, real connection that is not, again, rooted in fear and in, like, doom? It’s like, oh guys, everything is terrible, get off your phones, the algorithm is doing this much. It’s like... No, like, let’s, let’s organize, let’s join forces, let’s, share more human sides of... of who we... like, our struggles, because we see either, I guess, we are put into boxes, you know, and the algorithm, like, does that naturally. It’s like, oh, you share information, or you share, recommendations. And you are this person that only talks about, books, or you are this person who talks about everything that the government is doing wrong. And I was like. I don’t want to be put into a box. I want to be able to, you know, just talk about, kind of, my life and everything, because I know people, will connect, because at the end of the day. We are all sharing this human experience, obviously, from our different points of view. But I think, you know, I I generally believe that the algorithm is the most powerful political tool that we have right now. And that goes both ways. You know. It goes, okay, yes, we have bots, we have all of these things about people. being manipulated, you know, this radicalization, our young people falling into these, really radical pipelines, but at the same time, these algorithms, as we were saying before, like, they can also do good. So, after a bit of, like. back and forth, I was like, no, I want to go back to this. So I think within this month, I’ll be back with a bit of a different take and perspective. But, you know, I’m really excited about it. But yeah, like, basically, when I started, when that went viral, I know the algorithm. So I was like, I have maybe two months. While this goes on. So I was doing it every single week, and from there, I was like, hey guys, if you want the links and a little, like, reflection on the media that I’m recommending, you can go over to my Substack. And that’s how I got, like, my first few thousand subscribers, but then it kind of took a life of its own. And then I started growing more as a writer, and I started, you know, digging deeper, and it’s like, oh, it’s not really just about, oh, let’s get off our phones and read this essay. I realized, like, the deep structural issues, and I was like. oh, okay, I need to do more, and that’s kind of how everything evolved into what it is right now, and, you know, there’s a lot of exciting things coming for me. I’m working on one book. I already have an agent for Another book that I’m working on. I’m working with different projects and companies that I really admire, that I’ve connected with. And right now, like, I’m gonna go, actually on Monday, I go on, like, a month and a half trip to the U.S. to get to know all of these people that have been with me on my journey. I get to meet with the founder of the editorial house that, you know, I’m working on this book. with, you know, to, you know, just talk to him and work in person. And again, this... I think this is, you know, again, about the connection economy. Yes, I met you guys digitally, but connecting in person, I’m probably gonna do an event in New York, because again, I think this connection goes beyond the URL. I like to, like, think of, like, URL and IRL. I think it’s fun. But, you know, it’s evolved like crazy, and I’m so grateful. And, you know, if I could do this, you know, with my laptop and my head and my despair. Like, you know, how can we build systems so other people can do this too?

D

: Yes. I think it’s beautiful, so impressive, and I’m excited to take a deep dive on your content, and I just... I just pushed you out to all the folks that follow me, because I think it’s awesome. So, yeah, keep it up, and you want to take down my email in case you need anything, or you want to...

M

: Absolutely.

D

: [email skipped lol]

D

: And so, if I can be useful to you, just hit me up.

M

: Oh, absolutely. Thank you so much. You know, again, this is very surreal for me. You know, I I I’ve admired your work for such a long time, and loved this conversation with you. Like I’m so excited to write down on my journal all of the little tidbits that that you gave me. And I’m sure, like, my subscribers will absolutely love this. This felt like a very generative conversation, and I think that’s what we should be aiming for right now.

D

: Yeah, well, thank you so much, and like I said, if I can do anything to support you, you have... you know how to reach me, just hit me up. I think it’s, I love what you’re doing.

M

: Thank you so much, and will do, for sure.

Thank you for your attention and see you hopefully very soon <3

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